Your assignment is to post two comments about your reading so far, and to respond to two other students’ comments.Your post must include parenthetical documentation and quotes from the text to back up your comments.Your responses should add to the discussion.Do no just say “I agree” or “I never thought of that.”You may indeed think these things, but you should add to that comment with your thoughts, and perhaps a question back to the original poster.
Here is a sample of what your post could look like.You do not have to write a post about the same subject that I wrote about here (in fact you shouldn’t); this is just an example.I want your observations, not mine.What I’d like you to do is copy the form.Make sure that you include quotes from the text and that you provide a page number so that your peers can look up the quote.I understand that you may have different copies of the texts, but a page number will get you close, especially if you include a chapter number.
Jane Eyre example:
The fire section in chapter 15 seems to me like a gothic horror story with a hint of mystery thrown in.Rochester acts like a gothic hero, all anger and resentment one minute, “In the name of all the elves in Christendom, is that Jane Eyre…What have you done with me, witch, sorceress?” (130) I understand that he was rudely awakened with water, but witch seems a tad extreme.Then the next moment he is so very solicitous asking Jane if she is cold, and if not to “take my cloak yonder; wrap it about [her]” (131) and to “place [her] feet on the stool, to keep them out of the wet.” (131) Why does he seem to vacillate so much between emotional extremes?There must be something about him or his life to have made him this way, but I haven’t seen it yet.
I’m not sure that I believe what he says about the fire’s cause.He blames Grace Poole, but does so in what Jane says is a “rather peculiar tone.” (132)Why is his tone peculiar unless he’d hiding something?He could be simply tired, but then he is also “glad [she is] the only person, besides [him]self” (132) that witnessed the event.If everything is aboveboard why is he glad that no one else knows about it?There definitely seems to be something else going on that we are being told at present.
Jane Eyre
ReplyDeleteThe scene where Jane tells off Mrs. Reed in chapter 4 is one of my favorite parts so far. This girl is only ten years old and she really put this adult in her place. I was giving a little cheer for Jane in my head while I read what she said. Especially on page 36 when she says, “I am glad you are no relation of mine; I will never call you aunt again as long as I live... the very thought of you makes me sick, and that you treated me with miserable cruelty.” Jane is able to free herself emotionally and as a family member from her evil aunt before she leaves Gateshead. She explains how she is a human who needs love and kindness and Mrs. Reed showed her none, especially after the awful red-room lockup. Jane tells it how it is when she says, “People think you are a good woman; but you are bad– hard-hearted. You are deceitful!” (36) I really like that Jane threw Mrs. Reed’s accusation of her back into her face. It’s true, Mrs. Reed is the liar, not Jane. Jane got the victory over her aunt and scared her. However, I wonder how Mrs. Reed was able to be frightened, even to the point of calling Jane “dear” and wanting to be her friend? (37)
In chapter 7 Mr. Brocklehurst comes back into the story and arrives at Lowood for the first time while Jane is there. I was really bothered by his entrance and the way he acted when her arrived and saw the girls. He complains to Miss Temple that, “the girls have two clean tuckers in the week; it is too much; the rules limit them to one.” (67) He also is upset that the girls got to eat bread and cheese for lunch twice. That is not much of a lunch to begin with! He then goes on to criticize girls for having curled hair, even though it is natural, and orders it to be cut off! He really presents himself as a monster. Then the tip of the iceberg that really made me mad was when his fancy schmancy family walks in wearing “velvet, silk, and furs,” (69) right after he was lecturing on how the girls should dress; “to teach them to clothe themselves with shame-facedness and sobriety– not with braided hair and costly apparel...” (69) He is such a hypocrite! I want to know who taught him to live a life of luxury and force young ladies to starve and wear embarrassing clothing.
Brandy Compton
Ok... Am I really first to comment? Well here it goes. With "A Prayer for Owen Meany", the idea of Owen being like a god, "...he looked like a descending angel--a tiny but fiery god, sent to adjudicate the errors of our ways." (Ch.2 p.71, along with the fact of saying he saw the Angel of Death over Tabby, and then gave the job to him, and even John's grandmother and how she was 'wailing like a banshee', meaning that a loved one will sooon die. He seems very smart for someone so young, though not small in figurative terms.
ReplyDeleteBrandy,
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think Bronte is saying about the society in which Jane lives? How do Mrs. Reed and Mr. Brocklehurst represent the societal values of the time? And how is Jane's response to their actions a statement also?
I agree with you; Reed and Brocklehurst are both despicable. Kind of makes me want to throw something at them!
Mrs. Anderson
Michelle,
ReplyDeleteWhat do you make of the Owen/god situation? Why would Irving create descriptions of Owen that are godlike?
Yes, Owen does seem like an old soul. What do you think this might mean for his character?
Mrs. Anderson
Why does St. John want to marry Jane, his cousin? First of all, Jane informed the Rivers family that she '...never shall marry...' (Vol.3 Ch. 7 P. 432), prior to finding out that they were related. Soon after, St. John informed Jane that he would '...make room in my heart for you, as my third and youngest sister.' (Vol. 3 Ch. 7 P. 433). Why would he want to marry his sister? Society was screwed up back in the day. He tells Jane that she will be '...a missionary's wife...' (Vol. 3 Ch. 8 P. 448). Why does he have to be married to do missionary work? There are single people, including priests, doing missionary work and they seem to be doing a good job. A person's relationship status shouldn't affect their ability to serve.
ReplyDeleteOwen promised John's mom, Tabitha, that he would help John with his schoolwork since Owen was smart and John, not so much. Tabitha told Owen, "I hope you never stop helping Johnny with his homework..." (Ch. 1 P. 24) and we know tat Owen does everything that she asks of him. What's shocking is that he didn't just help Johnny for a couple of months, but he even helped him throughout college. John said that in their senior year at Gravesend, "...Owen helped me with the history paper and wrote the English paper for me." (Ch.6 P. 304). Even when Owen gets full scholarships to Yale and Harvard, he sacraficed those and attends the University of New Hampshire. He tells John, "I don't see how I can let you fend for yourself." Ch.7 P. 339). He had other excuses, too, for attending UNH, but I think Owen feels bad for killing John's mom and wants to do John a favor. Also, he probably wanted to honor Tabitha's wishes for Owen because he just adored her.
Taylor Brady
Taylor,
ReplyDeleteAs for being married as a missionary, you need to remember the time period in which this was written. The society had different customs and expectations than ours; this is one of them.
A more interesting question, to me, for what it reveals about John's character is simply why does he want to marry her? Does he love her? If not, what does this say about the society and him?
Mrs. Anderson
When Johnny and his three cousins were younger, around the age of ten or so, and they developed their make-up-as-you-go games, I thought it was rather strange that the two brothers, Noah and Simon, forced Johnny and Hester to kiss. They succeeded in degrading Hester, "because they made it clear that kissing Hester was a punishment, the penalty part of the game (pg 57)". Also, that Johnny could even admit "And it's true- it was no big deal, to be sure; it wasn't much of a hard-on, maybe; but I had one. (pg 60)" is quite disturbing. It's his COUSIN!!!
ReplyDeleteJulie Baniszewski
To Taylor's comment on Owen helping Johnny throughout school.
ReplyDeleteI would disagree. I don't think Owen feels quilty for killing Tabby. I think that Owen honestly believes he was "God's intrument" and that it was God's plan to kill Tabby. I think he helped John throughout school, not because of guilt but because he felt that's what God would want him to do. He felt like it was his duty to protect John...otherwise, why would he have cut off John's finger? That had nothing to do with Tabby's death, it was out of pure love for his best friend. He wanted nothing but the best for Johnny and felt like he was assigned or entitled to look out for him.
I didn't understand why Owen seemed to hate his parents nor did I understand why they let him boss them around so much. In chapter 4, on page 184, Owen blows his father off about his part in the play. It is obvious that Owen does not want his father there, but I do not understand why. The only thing I am able to come up with is that Owen is ashamed of his parents, which is a very sad thing. Even when Dan tries to get Owen to invite his parents (pg 206), Owen suggests any reason he can think of in order to not invite them. Then, when he realizes that his parents are in the audience, I was amazed that he stopped the play and shouted at them in front of everyone, no less. "'What do you think you're doing here?' the angry Lord Jesus screamed (219)". Why is Owen so ANGRY and passionate about his parents attending his play. Why would he stop and order to be carried out? I just think that is extremely rude and have no idea why his parents let him boss them around like that.
ReplyDeleteJulie,
ReplyDeleteI don't want to give anything away, but Owen has his reasons for feeling as he does about his parents, and for treating them that way. His parents also have their reasons for allowing him to treat them that way. Have you noticed that it almost seems as if he is raising himself? Johnny's family behaves more as a family to him and he to them.
Mrs. Anderson
To Michelle's post on Owen:
ReplyDeleteI agree that Owen is smart, but I also think that there is something more than wisdom being his motivations and his actions. There are just too many coincidences. I also think that Owen's size, in relation to his uncanny beliefs, is something of God's plan for him, as he states throughout the book. Hence his voice also. He truely believes that God made things the way they are for a specific reason, and he proves to be right in the end of the book. Whether he is right or not, I think that he is. I think he has unnormal abilities or is just not normal. He isn't like everyone else and he knows this and is not afraid to flaunt it.
Mrs. Anderson,
ReplyDeleteI believe it all means he's really important, and to pay attention when things like that crop up, like Mr. Meany saying he was 'virgin-born', how he manages to get the part of Little Lord Jesus in the Christmas Pagent. I believe it means he's like an angel, sent to help John and even the Vietnamese children at the end, maybe even Dick too.
Julie,
ReplyDeleteConsidering Owens part of view, they aren't even coincidences. They all happen for a reason. Him practicing 'the shot' to get it to three seconds in order to move the grenade. His size and voice so he could help the children (trying not to spoil for others sorry) even how he got the part of Christmas Yet to Come, and saw his own gravestone. Even the foul ball changed the course of things for him as well. John's Grandmother buying the television even changed things up a bit. I believe Owen when he says that God made things for a specific reason, just like the end of the book.
Michelle,
ReplyDeleteAll of what you say, added to what Owen says and does, I believe, adds to Johnny's belief in God. That is one of the things that I really like about this book. Where do we find God? Who has the answers? Does Mr. Merrill? Does Dan? Does Owen? It makes me question, which I think is a good thing.
Mrs. Anderson
I noticed that Owen is not only the cause of Tabitha's death (33), but also Sagamore's, Mr. Fish's dog(179). They're even both sport related! I suppose that I would call that a coincidence, but Owen certainly wouldn't. I wonder if he ever notices this connection? Oh! On the wedding day, Tabitha gets hit between the eyes with a hailstone AS HARD AS A BASEBALL because of Owen! And, not that I think Lydia's death was caused by Owen, Germaine DID say they thought they heard him scream, which he did do. "...the sheer terror in Owen's cry was matched by a corresponding terror in the audience."(244). All this Owen related and kind of Owen related death is...strange. Is he really God's instument of death?
ReplyDeleteJohn's father is such a mystery to me. I hope that there aren't big, obvious clues that point us to who he could be and I'm mising them. All my theories were shot out of the sky by John thinking the same thing, "...Maybe this was the FIRST man she'd met on the train..."(42) and then his mother assuring him his ideas were wrong. I don't think she would lie to him. I don't think Dan could be John's real father and not tell him. I also thought that maybe a Meany somewhere...might be, and Tabitha didn't tell anybody because her mother despised them. While I have no proof AGAINST it, I also don't have any evidence FOR it. When do we find out!? Was he the man in the crowd at the baseball game?(237-8)
Alyssa Ricardo
Alyssa,
ReplyDeleteSo what do you think of the whole fate/destiny/no coincidences motif? Do you buy it and what do you think Irving is saying about the this in relation to human beings? Meaning us.
Mrs. Anderson
Mrs. Anderson,
ReplyDeleteWell, I don't think that the stuff going on in the book is coincidence, there's just too much that seems connected to each other. I think Irving might be saying that we could see it as a coincidence, or see that everything is interconnected and happens for a reason. Most people are prone to believe that everything is random and that it would be too weird if anything actually had something to do with something else. Am I on the right track?
Alyssa Ricardo
To Julie on Owen and his parents:
ReplyDeleteI thought about the same thing. I can't imagine treating my parents like that. I haven't finished the book quite yet, so I still don't know why he acts like that towards his parents. Is he ashamed of them in some way? Or maybe they are embarrassed of the way he is and he caught on, so he wants nothing to do with them? it sure seems that he has as little to do with them as possible.
Alyssa Ricardo
To Alyssa's comment:
ReplyDeleteI noticed that he was the cause of Sagamore's death also! I also thought about the hailstone and how maybe that caused a medical problem that eventually ended Tabitha's life with the baseball. If she got hit in the head in the same spot, twice, with the same amount of force, that could probably cause an aneurysm.
Later on in the novel, when John and Owen are reading back and forth to each other, it reminded me of Lydia's death and I was so afraid that one of them would die during this activity. I also had the idea that maybe John and Owen were brothers, but when I found out who the real father was, it made sense. You might be disappointed when the truth comes out.
By the way, the previous comment was posted by Taylor Brady.
ReplyDeleteJane Eyre
ReplyDeleteI really have enjoyed this book so far. I feel a lot of compassion for Jane. She is pretty much alone in the world, left to fend for herself. I really hated how Jane was abused mentally and physically in Chapter one. I mean does John really think that he is better then her? It made my skin crawl when John said “ You are dependent..and not live with gentlemen’s children like us, and eat the same meals we do.” [15] That quote really shows how highly he thinks of his family, and mainly him. When really their the ones that are the rats. I just wanted to jump into the book , and be in Jane’s position and tell that jerk off! Even though that wouldn’t of been the appropriate thing to do. I feel bad that Jane is stuck with them, and even if she didn’t want to stay there she has no where else to go.
In Chapter three, Jane talks to Mr. Lloyd. It really bothered me how Jane was telling him things like “ I was knocked down.” and “But John Reed knocked me down, and my aunt shut me up in the red-room.” [31] and he paid no attention to it and made it seem like she was crazy, even though she is quite normal. Mr. Lloyd annoyed me because his tone was matter-of-fact. For example when Jane was telling him how she wanted to leave Gateshead and he says “Pooh! You cant be silly enough to wish to leave such a splendid place?” I feel like there is a touch of sarcasm there, but maybe not. He plays it out like Gateshead is the best place ever. It really got on my nerves, I felt bad for her.
Hannah Leonard
To Julie's comment:
ReplyDeleteI was grossed out by the kissing his cousin part too! What's pretty ironic though is that they all called Hester "Hester the Molester" and then when she becomes this rock star, she uses the nickname as her stage name! Like you said, they made kissing Hester a punishment, but when they are all older and she's famous, everyone wants to kiss her and it's no longer a punishment.
Taylor Brady
Hannah,
ReplyDeleteWhen Jane lost her parents, she lost her social position, so Bronte is showing us how this Victorian society operated. You can see this motif throughout the book. (This would be a good thing to make note of in your journal - all of the times when we see how the society may be unfair, or seem unfair based on our own.)
You might also want to take another look at the "red room." Anything symbolic here?
Mrs. Anderson
Responding to Alyssa's comment reguarding John's real father;
ReplyDeleteI'm trying to figure out the same thing! When John expressed his suspicion of it being the vocal coach, Owen says "That would be too obvious." (108) I suppose that since it is Owen saying this, and he is sort of God's go-to, it is probably true. However, if I didn't know Owen's character I would jump straight into this theory. Why else would she continue to go to Boston?
Kaylee Gue
To Taylor:
ReplyDeleteSomething else I just noticed: Harry Hoyt and Buzzy Thurston were the boys who screwed up or whatever, causing Owen to come up to bat. Harry died from a snake bite in Vietnam, Buzzy died trying to avoid the draft, and Owen died...in Vietnam. That seemed interesting to me.
I'm almost done with the book, so I know who John's father is. I AM disappointed, but shocked. It was SUCH a surprise; I'd had many theories, but none of them included HIM.
Alyssa Ricardo
Kaylee,
ReplyDeleteThat's a good question. Why did she continue to go to Boston? Can you think of any possibilities besides her wish to see Owen's father?
Mrs. Anderson
Responding to Julie on Owen and his parents;
ReplyDeleteI'm about half way through this book, but it's very clear that Owen's home life isn't that of a normal child. His parents let him do whatever he wants, and he seems pretty bossy towards them. I'm a little early to start guessing, but I wonder if his mother's reclusiveness plays into it. Perhaps he's resentful for having a mother less perfect than he felt Tabby was? Or perhaps it's more about him having a higher purpose than either of his parents, and he's developed a cocky attitude?
I can't wait to find out!
Kaylee Gue
On A Prayer for Owen Meany;
ReplyDeleteBased on text from page 16, I feel that the singing lessons were a chance for Tabby to leave Gravesend, be the free woman that she seemed to be on the inside, and if not see John's father...then to meet someone worthy of taking his place in John's upbringing.
It says, "-until I was ten and she married the man who would adopt me and become like a father to me; until then-she kept going to Boston overnight. Until then, she kept singing..."(16) As I'm not finished yet, this is my best clue. It sounds as though Tabby had a romantic vision of finding 'the one' in the same place she found 'the wrong one'.
Kaylee Gue
I don't think I fully understand the use of the armadillo in A Prayer for Owen Meany.
ReplyDeleteI mean, I understand that it was a special object shared between John and Owen, and that it was a 'learning device' of Dan's- a prop "...used to hold or focus the students' attention, or to distract them from what he would, finally, make them see." (48). What I don't understand is what Dan was trying to teach to John.
Did he intend for it to be a peace offering, given to John to demonstrate that he wanted to share Tabby, and not exclude or mistreat John? I feel that is close, as it is used by John as an offering to Owen when they are trying to convey their feelings after Tabby's death (80-87).
Kaylee Gue
Kaylee,
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure if you're there yet, but at one point Owen has charge of the armadillo. If you have read that, think about that section and the return.
Mrs. Anderson
I think birds are a possible symbol in Jane Eyre. They have been mentioned several times in the text so far, and Jane seems to have a fondness for them: "I returned to my book - Bewick's 'History of British Birds'..." (10); "...and she brought up with her a tart on a certain brightly painted china plate, whose bird of paradise, nestling in a wreath of convolvuli and rosebuds, had been wont to stir in me a most enthusiastic sense of admiration; and which plate I had often petitioned to be allowed to take in my hand in order to examine it more closely, but had always hitherto been deemed unworthy of such a privilege." (25); "All this being nothing to me, my vacant attention soon found livelier attraction in the spectacle of a little hungry robin, which came and chirruped on the twigs of the leafless cherry-tree nailed against the wall near the casement." (37) I'm not exactly sure what the birds are symbolizing, but to me it seems that they appear to stand for Jane's desire to escape. Birds can simply fly away, as Jane would obviously like to do herself. I find it interesting that the bird plate is seen right before Mr. Lloyd appears and indirectly helps Jane escape Gateshead by recommending she be sent to school. Also, Jane observes the robin, and immediately after, Mr. Brocklehurst arrives to speak to her about Lowood... in other words, escaping Gateshead.
ReplyDeleteNicole Bell
Nicole,
ReplyDeleteIf this is so - the bird/escape motif, then what is Jane's ultimate escape or is there one? If there is, or is not, what might either mean?
Mrs. Anderson
Jane Eyre
ReplyDeleteI have noticed a bit of a reference to red in the book, like the beginning with the red room, the curtain she hides behind to read in chapter 1, then the flame from the fire in ch. 3, ch. 5 "... and a little red gallery..." (p.47), ch. 11 "...the large fire was al red and clear." (p.156), ch.20 "...he measured twelve drops of a crimson liquid and presented it to Mason." (p.258), ch.25 "...her dress was blood red and half overcast." (p.335). It happens alot to ignore, but maybe it's nothing.
My favorite aspect of this novel (Owen Meany) is the way the author gets different details across to the reader. His main purpose in this novel is to get across that owen is an instrument of God but of course the challenge of writing a novel is that you must get information across without just metaphorically beating the reader over the head with it. One of the most effective ways the author does this is by displaying Owen's "divinity" by his daily activities and conversations.
ReplyDelete"When i complained about church, I complained about the usual things a kid complains about: the claustrophobia, the boredom. But Owen complained religiously. "A PERSON'S FAITH GOES AT ITS OWN PACE," Owen Meany said, "THE TROUBLE WITH CHURCH IS THE SERVICE. A SERVICE IS CONDUCTED FOR A MASS AUDIENCE. JUST WHEN I START TO LIKE THE HYMN, EVERYONE PLOPS DOWN TO PRAY. JUST WHEN I START TO HEAR THE PRAYER, EVERYONE POPS UP TO SING. AND WHAT DOES THE STUPID SERMON HAVE TO DO WITH GOD? WHO KNOWS WHAT GOD THINKS OF CURRENT EVENTS? WHO CARES?"
"to these complaints, and others like them, I could respond only by picking up Owen Meany and holding him above my head." Pg. 32
This text shows Owen's understanding of religion which is so far from what is plausible for a child his age that it forces the reader into the understanding that he is "unaturally" intuitive and understanding. Also when Johnny says that to these complaints of Owen's he can only respond my picking him up it shows just how far beyond the general understanding of normal kids their age it is. by doing this the author has forced the reader into accepting his point of view on the matter without just telling them thats how it is.
On julie's comment on Taylors.
ReplyDeleteI would agree with julie on most of her positions as Owen does believe that he is doing God's will by helping Johnny as well as just being there for his friend. however I have to disagree with her when she says that Owen doesn't feel guilty for killing tabby. The guilt he feels is pretty well summarized on page 42 when he says
"I'M SORRY!" just after the tragedy occurs.
Gentry,
ReplyDeleteObviously religion plays a major role in APFOM, as it does in JE. Do you think that Irving is trying to say something about religion in our country, how institutions and individuals practice or believe, and on a wider level, how if affects our society? Or is this a closer look at the individuals? Or both?
Mrs. Anderson
To Brandy's comment on Jane Eyre.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Brandy. I loved when Jane told Ms. Reed off, it was very brave of her. I also agree with Brandy about Mr. Brocklehurst he is a hypocrite. He talks about the girls at school just having enough food and clothes to get by, when I'm sure he lives a life of luxury. I think if anyone needs to be at that school its him.
Hannah Leonard
I believe the conversation that takes place between Helen and Jane at the end of chapter 6 is very important. These passages, especially, highlight one of the novel's themes (the treatment of women in this time period): When Jane comments that she could not bear to be humiliated in a room full of people, as had happened earlier to Helen, Helen replies that, "It would be your duty to bear it, if you could not avoid it: it is weak and silly to say you cannot bear what it is your fate to be required to bear." (66) Helen is showing that she has been conditioned to act the way women were expected to behave: timid and resigned to take what they are given, regardless of how it affects them. How awful! I expect much of the book will be about Jane learning this painful lesson, and this quote is foreshadowing that. It will be difficult for Jane to just accept this subservient role, as her views of how she should behave are the exact opposite: "When we are struck at without a reason, we should strike back again very hard; I am sure we should - so hard as to teach the person who struck us never to do it again." (68) Jane definitely does not seem like someone who will just allow others to treat her badly. I wonder how she will deal with society trying to make her do just that as the book progresses.
ReplyDeleteNicole Bell
Jane Eyre
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, Jane being sent to Lowood is very good in her advantage. She can escape the dreadful life she had a Gateshead. I also believe that Helen and Jane will be good friends because they are opposite of each other. Jane is the type of person that believes in equality and being fair when it comes to mistreatment, when Helen however believes in being passive, and just taking it. This is shown in Chapter 6 when Helen says-"When we are struck at without a reason, we should strike back again very hard . . . so as to teach the person who struck us never to do it again"(70)
I was quite upset when I read Chapter 7, because Mr. Brocklehurst returns and he humilates Jane in front of the entire school by making her seem decitful. Mr. Brocklehurst warns the teachers by saying- "Teachers, you must watch her; keep your eyes on her movements, weigh well all her words, scrutinize her actions, punish her body to save her soul." (80) I feel bad beacuse it seems even though she is not at Gateshead the Reeds are still maing her life misreable.
In Chapter 8 I really like how we get to know more about Miss Temple. We get to see that she is a compassionate person who really does care about the girls at Lowood. She really makes Jane feel like she can prove her self- " We shall think you what you prove yourself to be my child. Continue to act as a good girl, and you will satisfy me." (85) This just gives Jane hope that the life she lead at Gateshead will not follow her to Lowood.
Nicole,
ReplyDeleteI understand what you are saying about Jane vs. Helen, but I also think that Helen is a very strong girl, and that her comment shows that. It is not a bad thing to be strong enough to take the disapproval of others, if you have a solid idea of what is right and the truth. Can you think of a historical figure who fits that characterization?
Mrs. Anderson
Hannah,
ReplyDeleteI also find that quote by Brocklehurst to be pretty disturbing. I wonder how many students in our school feel that a teacher or teachers are singling them out, scrutinizing them for whatever faults, or perceived faults, that they may have. I would wager that it is not a few.
Mrs. Anderson
Mrs. Anderson
ReplyDeleteWhat Irving is trying to say about religion is that the way that the church services are conducted so that everyone can have a spiritual experience, no individual is able to have a significant one. For example while one person might have the most spiritual experience by simply singing and worshiping the entire time, another might prefer to pray in silence. Because of this the church's service consists of a portion of both. Of course the obvious dilema is that when those who like to sing get cut off when its time to pray, their connection with God is brought to an unholy halt. The problem being that there is no way to get everyone exactly what they want/need so the church decides its better to make everyone happy than anyone fully satisfied (which i believe is most important).
In regards to how it influences our society, as much as the world can rally behind the seperation of church and state, the last time i checked the dollar bill says In God We Trust. What happens in church inevitably influences how things happen in our society. Just as the church strives to make everyone happy, our government today is pursuing the same goal with it's obsession with pollitical correctness. For example many people enjoy saying "merry Christmas" but others prefer "happy Hanukkah" so to not upset anyone the accepted term is now Happy Holidays (which i personally never say because i think you should say whatever makes you happy). So while no one gets the full spiritual connection in church, no one gets to greet people the way they prefer around a part of the year that is special to them. Irvings bottom line is that we need to find our own way of doing things, whether it be building a relationship with God or greeting a friend around the holidays. Because if we simply conform to the way of others we will never get the full experience of life.
Gentry,
ReplyDeleteFirst, thank you for replying to my questions. Heads up everyone, I'm not asking them idly.
I appreciated your analysis of the individual and his or her experiences within our society. One of the benefits of the separation of church and state is that we can attempt to find and live out our own spirituality, without the government or any other agency demanding that we conform to theirs. You are free to be Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Wiccan, pagan, atheist, or any other "ist" and no one can force you to be otherwise. This, if you look at our entire world is not the case in other countries.
While Irving presents many problems inherent in our society, this is not one of them.
Mrs. Anderson
Mrs. Anderson,
ReplyDeleteI don't think that John loves Jane. He just found out that she recieved this HUGE fortune and the money would help him do more good acts for the world. In this society, marriage and love was greatly affected by what was in one's pocketbook. Men proposed to women whose parents or relatives had tons of money, and women tended to do the same. Their parents usually encouraged them to marry the rich people and those in the higher class of society.
Society, at that time, was all about the dinero and not about true feelings. Everyone was trying to move up in the world and wanted to associate themselves with the best. As long as there was money in the family, everyone was happy.
Taylor Brady
Mrs. Anderson,
ReplyDeleteThe red room is symbolic because is represents her imprisonment in her lower social class, it also symbolizes her lack of money and love.
Hannah Leonard
On page 29 of "A Preyer for Owen Meany," Owen says to Johnny "Your mother has the best breasts of all the mothers." If I were Johnny, I really don't know how I would respond to that because that's something that would immediately make the situation very awkward. But I definitely wouldn't start naming off other mothers to compare breasts with. I just think that it's pretty weird to have a friend complement your own mother's breasts. I guess that's just how it was back then.
ReplyDeleteEdson Oeseburg
On Gentry's post..
ReplyDeleteI would agree with you about my favorite aspect of this book being how the reader gets details across. Especially with the complaints that Owen has, he isn't like every other kid that complains about little things. Owen has the ability to have these deeply religious thoughts and questions that are much more complex and in depth from any other child his age.
Edson Oeseburg
A Prayer for Owen Meany
ReplyDeleteAshton Bjaranson
I have only read roughly half of this novel in it's entirety and I am completely transfixed with the character that is Owen Meany. Finally in all my years of reading a character with intrigue beyond bonds. This diminutive and questioning young boy has me pulling my own bible out every few pages of reading to delve deeper into his religious standings. He is almost a flawed but perfect creature just as any of us; which adds to my fixation. Chapter 2 PG 87 "GOD HAS TAKEN YOU MOTHER. MY HANDS WERE THE INSTRUMENT. GOD HAS TAKEN MY HANDS. I AM GOD'S INSTRUMENT". I can not even describe the difficult task upon my mind of grasping this concept Irving illustrates through Owen. I am in constant arguement to agreement with our young Meany from page to page as I wrestle my own thoughts and religion. Predestionation mixed with the free will God has given us; and the choices he hopes we make send us all on different paths we're destined to lead. Or is life just a path with destinations, millions of them, as we inevitably change courses. I beleive choices lead to paths and paths lead to destionations but my friend Owen Meany is making me look deeper.
In response to Ed,
ReplyDeleteUpon reading page 29 and subsequent following pages of A Prayer for Owen Meany I couldn't stop smiling. One reason being the obvious awkward and comic relief instigated by Irving but the second being Johnny and Owens friendship. The openness and trust displayed between the two is so rare and and unique. Not brotherly while remaining a inseparable and unconditional bond. The funnies aside there's not many if anyone in this world I would engage in this conversation with; but those of whom I would hold their weight in gold to me.
Ashton Bjaranson
Jane Eyre
ReplyDeleteAs I first began reading this book, I thought wow, another typical Cinderella story. The mistreated girl in a grand house with a mother who spoiled her own children, and then wouldn’t you know it, Jane gets locked up in a room, just like Cinderella. As I continued reading I was just waiting for the prince charming to pop out into the story at any second, but to my surprise, he never came. My further readings lead me in another direction; this book is similar to Matilda. A girl, who is very different from everyone whom she lives with, and can put any adult in their place, is sent to go to school. At school there is a very nice and sweet teacher that everyone loves (Miss Temple), and the head of the school (Mr. Brcklehurst) is less than amiable to anyone living in the school. In both Matilda and Jane Eyre the principals are out to get the main character. One principal locks Matilda in a nail closet, while the other puts Jane on a chair and humiliates her. In the end of both the books the principals fall, and the school becomes better. The similarities between the two books are undeniable.
~*Elizabeth Patrias*~
Hannah,
ReplyDeleteI feel the same way about Jane. I mean, wow, how can they be so harsh to her and say those things when in reality they are the horrible people. I don't want to give anything away, but they got what was coming to them, and it is rather interesting what happenes to each of them. The situation with Mr. Lloyd really got on my nerves too. Jane told him what was happeneing, and he's just like, oh it's so nice here, you should be happy.. but then again he did convince Mrs. Reed to get Jane in school, so maybe he wasn't completely stupid..
~*Elizabeth Patrias*~
Brandy!!! :D
ReplyDeleteI am so with you about Jane. I was cheering Jane on all the way when she went off on Mrs. Reed. I was surprised Mrs. Reed sat and listened to it all and didn't throw Jane in the redroom again. She is my hero for saying all the things she did, and then threatening Mrs. Reed to tell everyone what kind of person she really is.
That was a priceless moment when Mr. Brocklehurst was going off on Miss Temple about how the girls should dress and shouldn't wash too much... then his family walks in. I was thinnking, wow hypocrite much? ha ha. I was also pretty upset when he complained about the aditional cheese. What a jerk, he has absolutely no compassion.
~*Elizabeth Patrias*~
Elizabeth,
ReplyDeleteFirst off thank you for not giving anything away:)
I agree with you about how Mr. Lloyd convinced Mrs. Reed to enroll JAne in school.
I feel like she is doing much better at Lowood, she is better off there then at Gateshread.
Also I agree with what you said about Brandy's blog Mr. Brocklehurst has no compassion and he is a jerk!!!!
I agree with Hannah about Mr. Brocklehurst. It's hypocritical and disturbing. If all teachers/figures of authority singled out children to abuse their power upon, without any evidence of wrong-doing by the child, the educational system would fall apart. Plus, Mr. Brocklehurst preaches a life of God, as he rules over the school with an iron fist, forcing the girls to conform to his ideas and to go against nature in order to perserve their souls.
ReplyDeleteKathleen McDonough
At first I found it odd that Eliza and Georgiana were more friendly towards Jane than to each other, considering the past relations between them. However, it seems that they believe Jane to be more worthy of their attention during the visit than she was when she lived with the Reed's.
ReplyDeleteI also found it odd that Mrs. Reed sent for Jane, and yet showed her no respect or fondness whatsoever, telling Jane, "You have a very bad disposition," and then refusing to kiss her niece and be forgiven. It seems that if you were dying, you would not want to see someone that you had treated so horribly in the past, unless to ask for their forgiveness. And yet, stubborn until death, Mrs. Reed dies without accepting Jane's offer of reconciliation.
Kathleen McDonough
The character in Jane Eyre named Helen Burns really stood out from all the characters in the book. The thing I found most odd was when she got sick. Not that getting sick during that time was unusal especially when the typhus was spreading like wild fire through the school but it was odd how she was singled out from everyone else and was sick with something different. "Helen she held a little longer than me: she let her go more reluctantly; it was Helen her eye followed to the door; it was forher she for a second time breathed a sad sigh; for her she wiped a tear from her cheek" pg 96. I dont know if the author did this because Burns was already different from the other girls (always getting scolded by the teachers and a favorite of Mrs. Temple's). But it made her seem more important to me. I was also taken back that she died. Especially when Jane crawled into the bed where she was lying and stayed there with her even though she was deathly ill and Burns had told her it was her time to go. Burns seemed very mature about it and was ok with dieing, I thought that was really big for someone so young to say and feel.
ReplyDeleteThroughout the whole book religion played a hugh role. I thought It was interesting how religion always seemed to save Jane from whatever she needed to be saved from. For example, when she was living at Gateshead she desperatly wanted to leave and go somewhere else "'I am not your dear, I cannot lie down: send me to school soon, Mrs. Reed, for I hate to live here.' pg. 50". The school she was sent to 50 miles away was lowood a religious school for girls. Jane was also saved later in the book by religion but in a different form. St. John save Jane from dieing outside from hunger, harsh weather conditions, and exhaustion. She needed somewhere to stay and be feed for awhile and this religion came in the form of a human but it still saved her. Jane always seemed to be close to her faith and it always seemed to lead her in the right direction saving her.
Posted by: Sarah baniszewski
To Hannah [On Brandy's post]
ReplyDeleteI felt the exact same way! I was so glad that she stood up to Mrs. Reed, especially when she said, "...I will say that the very thought of you makes me sick, and that you treated me with miserable cruelty." (36) She told her exactly how she felt, and then she even went on to tell her that she was not the one who had been deceitful, but they.
Mr. Brocklehurst irks me something awful;I wish he would just get over himself. I hate how he brings the private affair of Jane's "behavioral problems" to the attention of the entire room! (71-2) He makes her seem like some devil-spawn, but he doesn't even KNOW her! He just believes Mrs. Reed because she's upperclass. She's seen as a "kind, benefactress" who has to deal with a terror of a child. It's...disgusting that a child could go on being ignored and abused because her position in life gives her no credibility when it's her word against theirs.
Alyssa Ricardo
On edson's post,
ReplyDeleteYeah i'd agree that with most kids (including me) talking about someones mother in that way is considered fighting words if not quickly followed by a sencere apology. Johnny even says that if any other kid would have said those things thats exactly how it would have been interpreted. However Johnny talks about why this is not the case between him and owen.
"A measure of Owen's seriousnes was that we could talk about the mothers of all our friends, and Owen could be extremely frank in his appraisal of my mother to me; he could get away with it, because I knew he wasn't joking. Owen never joked."
"YOUR MOTHER HAS THE BEST BREASTS OF ALL THE MOTHERS. No other friend could have said this to me without starting a fight."
So it wasn't so much that thats how it was back then as it was a testament to first, the seriousness of Owen and second, the depth of their friendship.
Mrs. Anderson,
ReplyDeleteI think Bronte is showing the reader how the society Jane lives in only values the rich, beautiful, educated, and skillful people and does not care about the thoughts, emotions, and compassions of the poor. Mrs. Reed and Mr. Brocklehurst are perfect representatives of the wealthy class, looking down upon and being disgusted with the "ugly" and poor.
Jane's response to their actions is quite abnormal I think, because in those days it was very seldom that a poor person would act out against the wealthy, and for a woman to cross a man. And yes, I wanted to throw something too!
Brandy Compton
Elizabeth!! =]
ReplyDeleteI am glad you are with me on Jane's outburst on Mrs. Reed. If you remember, she was feeling shameful after she told her aunt off; "A child cannot quarrel with its elders, as I had done; cannot give its furious feelings uncontrolled play, as I had given mine, without experiencing afterward the pang of remorse and the chill of reaction." (37) When I read this my cheering and "You go girl!" turned into, "What are you talking about?!" She said she felt like she had been poisoned and should ask Mrs. Reed's pardon (38) for what she had done. I agree with you, she acted like a hero. And yes, Mr. Brocklehurst is a big fat jerk face.
I really like your comparisons of Jane Eyre to Cinderella and Matilda. I had never even considered their likeness, but after you mention it, you are right! The evidence and comparisons you provided make their similarites undeniable. I know the Cinderella type stories have been around for centuries and centuries, but maybe the 1996 movie, Matilda, actually used Bronte's Jane Eyre to help create their plot. You never know!
Brandy Compton
Jane Eyre
ReplyDeleteMy favorite chapter in the entire book would have to be chapter twenty-six. From the get go I did not want Jane to marry Rochester, he acted strange. This chapter was full of twists, turns, and drama. It seemed so sweet and perfect, the two going off to get married, because they were both so in love with each other, but then on page 335, “The marriage cannot go on; I declare the existence of impediment.” When I read this I was like ‘yes, so read excitement in the book!’ Then on page 336, “It simply consists in the existence of a previous marriage; Mr. Rochester has a wife now living.” By this point I was just like wow, this is some real Jerry Springer right here. Even though but this point the cat is out of the bag, I felt like saying, ok Rochester, just spill the beans, because they were showing documentation and everything, then he tried saying there is no proof she is living. There was no talking himself out of it, so I was happy when on page 339 he said, “You shall see what sort of a being I was cheated into espousing…” When he said that, I was imagining a lady in a straight jacket. It made sense when on page340 he said, “She bit and stabbed you here,” that explain his previous injury, and why he was not allowed to talk to Jane. I knew it, he was up to no good. When his wife was described on page 340, “…Like some strange animal…” I was thinking, this is reverse Beauty and The Beast. Ha! The chapter ended with Jane praying, and in chapter 27 when she left, I was so relieved that she did. Rochester is a fishy character.
~*Elizabeth Patrias*~
Nicole,
ReplyDeleteI think you are right, birds pop up enough in the story to draw attention to their possible meaning. She does admire birds, but perhaps not for their ability to escape. I think she may like them for their innocense and lively nature, maybe even for their beauty, which she herself lacks. The bird may not symbolize her desire to necessarily “escape” from something or someone, but maybe just to have general freedom and the ability to fly high and experience independence. The birds appearing before she sees Mr. Lloyd and Mr. Brocklehurst could be symbolizing steps on her journey to finding out who she is, what her morals are, the strength of her character, etc.
Brandy Compton
Throughout APFOM, Owen usually manages, somehow, to get what he wants. He is able to have his way many times, like with the armadillo claws, the dummy, and most prevalent, the Christmas play. On page 201 it say "Thus did Owen remodel Christmas." He completely changed the Christmas play into the play that he wanted. He got rid of the turtledoves, he made Johnny the Joseph, and Mary the Mary. He also got rid of the crib. And he got Mary to bow to him. This shows that Owen has an unexplained, (by page 201) extraordinary power over people.
ReplyDeleteEdson Oeseburg
On Gentry's post
ReplyDeleteYeah, I see what you're saying, I don't think I realized that part while I was reading. But yeah, that just goes to show that their friendship is extremely deep and rare and they can trust each other with anything.
Edson Oeseburg
Owen Meany
ReplyDeleteI know that I am not the first to bring this up, but it still astonishes me how developed of a mind Owen is at age 11. For an 11 year old child to relate the accident with John's mom to taking the armadillo's hands and to the quote on page 87 "GOD HAS TAKEN YOUR MOTHER. MY HANDS WERE THE INSTUMENT. GOD HAS TAKEN MY HANDS. I AM GOD'S INSTRUMENT." is way past his age. Even John recognizes this, as further down page 87 he says "How could it ever occur to me that a fellow eleven-year-old was thinking any such thing?" I am not what you would consider a religious person, but even so, the depth that Irving goes into makes you stop and think. Another thing that makes Owen so thought-provoking is that he really has come up with this on his own. I cannot imagine that any 11 year old could have such deep thoughts, but if they did, you would think their ideas to be passed down from family. This is not the case with Owen. His parents don't seem to play a big role in his life. As someone said earlier, he seems to have control over them.
Taylor Gant
On Edson's post
ReplyDeleteI didn't really think about that until I read your post, but it makes me think back to Owen's idea of predestination. I don't know how far you are, but in chapter 5 Owen sees his name and date of death during the play. Again this goes back to predestination. Owen may have the extraordinary power over people to get his way because that is the route God has chosen for him.
Taylor Gant
in response to Kathleen's post:
ReplyDeleteI agree with you about the two sisters being more friendly towards Jane when she visited them. It was like they tried to pretend that none of them had been mean to her as a child. If I had be Jane I would have not stayed as long as she did or maybe not have even gone. They were horrible to her and she didn't deserve any of it. But it also showed how Jane grew and matured she learned that over time you can forgive someone even though they hurt you.
Sarah Baniszewski
In response to Alyssa's post:
ReplyDeleteI think that Owen is so religious and involved in his deep thoughts towards God that he makes himself believe that he is God's instrument, if he really is that I'm not really sure. And if he is an instrument of God I don't think Owen is only an instrument of death. Even though he did kill John's mother I think he is there for John to help him through everything, to be his best friend and maybe if he is God's instrument to help make John really believe in God and his faith like Owen. Like John said in the beginning of the book, "...he is the reason I believe in God; I am a Christian because of Owen Meany" pg. 1 "What Faith I have I owe to Owen Meany, a boy I grew up with. It is Owen who made me believe." pg.2 So maybe Owen was in John's life as instrument from God even though he wasn't perfect and maybe all those things and deaths did happen for a reason, a reason for John to still believe in God even though he didn't know his father growing up and his best friend kills his mother accidently, after all of that John still believes in God because of Owen and maybe that was what he was sent to do.
Sarah Baniszewski
In response to Elizabeth's comment
ReplyDeleteI agree with your idea of Mr. Brocklehurst. I hated that Jane was going to marry him from the first time the idea was introduced. But I never would have guessed that he had a wife that was still alive! But that he kept trying to deny it and then defending his actions when he couldn't convince everyone that the wife didn't exist. Though Mrs. Brocklehurst was mentally handicapped, I don't think it's right for Mr. Brocklehurst to abandon her in favor of a new, younger wife.
Kathleen McDonough
Owen Meany
ReplyDeleteI don't know if it is because they are in a small town or what, but Owen and John have a really close relationship. You don't really see that these days, maybe with girls but not usually with guys. Now you meet so many more people throughout school. Anyway it really shows how close they are when Owen is considering passing on Harvard to go to the state universtiy in chapter 7, before his run in at school. How many friends can you think of that would do that these days? Probably not many. Also, even though Owen could be looked at as responsible for John's mother's death, ( I would'nt say that), John still says " I have taken more from Owen than he has taken from me". That shows how deep their bond is.
Taylor Gant
On Taylor Brady's post on Owen
ReplyDeleteI would agree that Owen feels bad for killing John's mom, but I don't view that as his reason for considering turning down Harvard. I just think that is an example of how close they are. Owen still wants to help John, but that might also be because of their friendship. Owen believes that God has already chosen his path for him, so I don't see him holding the incident over his head like that for all those years. Obviously anybody would be affected by it, but Owen is not the typical person and has a different explanation for such occurences, in that he is God's instrument.
Taylor Gant
Jane Eyre
ReplyDeleteAs I continue my reading of Jane Eyre, I can't help but pity this young girl who has had such emotional and physical atrocities performed against her. From the unforgiving and never fair treatment of her wicked aunt to the abuse of her pathetic cousin John, it just all seems too horrible to be true. It's hard to imagine human beings acting in such harsh ways toward a fellow human being, especially a relative. Not to mention, the length at which this treatment and abuse has occured is herendous, spanning her entire childhood through age 10. It is evident that Jane Eyre is on a quest for love and affection... "I felt so sheltered and befriended while he sat in the chair near my pillow..." (15), "You think I have no feelings, and that I can live without one bit of love and kindness; but I cannot live so;..." (36), "..if others don't love me, I would rather die than live--" (75).
Helen Burns is really making a powerful impact on both me as the reader and on Jane Eyre as the main character. She seems empowered with a level of maturity that strikes Jane Eyre with senses of wonder and interest. She strikes me as a sort of symbol, maybe of a hidden message Charlotte Bronte is trying to reveal in accordance with Jane Eyre's growing character. When Jane Eyre speaks of things that hint towards vengeance and hatred, Helen responds by saying things like "Heathens and savage tribes hold that doctrine, but Christians and civilized nations disown it." (61) I do believe Helen Burns' character will be linked to a larger meaning or theme or symbol of some sort as the reader nears the end of the novel. It seems pretty apparent that this larger meaning will have to do with religion.
Cammi Savage
In response to Elizabeth's post
ReplyDeleteHow could you not want Jane to marry Rochester? They both obviously love each other, as is made evident beginning in chapter 23. "He took me into the dining-room, surveyed me keenly all over, pronounced me "fair as a lily, and not only the pride of his life, but the desire of his eyes,' " (333) When Rochester told Jane that it made me so happy because I feel as though Jane thought she would never hear a man tell her something so flattering. I suppose I'm just a sucker for love though so maybe that is why I wanted them to be together so badly. But any man who loves someone for their personality and not their looks is someone to be cherished, even if he does have a lunatic for a wife.
When Jane left him upon finding out this, at first I was so mad at her because if I was in her situation I would have stayed with him. But then I started thinking about how women always stay with men even though they shouldn't and I decided that I was impressed by the way she was able to just leave him. Although, I do think that she should have planned a little better before she ran away from him. "In seeking these articles, I encountered the beads of a pearl necklace Mr. Rochester had forced me to accept a few days ago. I left that; it was not mine; it was the visionary bride's who had melted in in air." (371) I think that she should have at least taken that pearl necklace so she could have some money to use.
What you said about Jerry Springer was really funny too!
Chelsea Smith
I would like to correct my mistake of confusing the names of Brocklehurst and Rochester, in my last comment.
ReplyDeleteI feel sorry for Mrs. Rochester. Though she is mentally unstable, I believe that she feels abandonment by Mr. Rochester and fears being completely replaced by Jane, though these feelings come out in the form of violent fits and attempted murders. I don't believe that she actually has any affection towards her husband, but that, perhaps subconciously, she feels the betrayal of his desire to marry Jane. She has been reduced to an animal- like creature in her own home, and while I don't think that her condition would be remedied by a closer connection to her husband and the outside world, I believe that it would be improved by a more human-like encounter with her husband and the others living at Thornfield.
Sorry. The previous comment was Kathleen McDonough's.
ReplyDelete-Kathleen
Chelsea Smith,
ReplyDeleteAt first I really didn't want Jane to marry him, because he was trying to worm his way out and say he wasn't married, and then that they had no proof that his wife was still alive. If he lied that much about her, when it was no big deal, that she was crazy, and he couldn't help it, then what else could he be lying about. I was thinking that maybe he locked her up, and she went mad because of that, and thats why she tried to hurt him when he brought everyone to her. By the end when I found out he tried saving her when the house was on fire, I realived maybe he is a good guy... or maybe he pushed her off... ha ha, na, I think he is a good guy, and it was good they got married.
~*Elizabeth Patrias*~
In A Prayer For Owen Meany, I believe that when John Wheelwright states, " As vividly as any number of the stories in the Bible, Owen Meany showed us what a martyr was."(17), that Irving is using this as a foreshadowing towards what might become of Owen Meany's life.
ReplyDeleteWilliam Dudeck
Jane Eyre
ReplyDeleteAt first in chapter 31, I thought St. John was really nice, and sweet. The way he was, around Rosamond. He was a wonderful guy, in my eyes, until chapter 34. On page 468 and on I began to see St. John as a weird-o. In chapter 33 St. John and Jane find out they are long lost cousins, cool, they are FAMILY. Then in chapter 34 he asks her to marry him and go to India…. Maybe it was ok back then to marry your cousin, but even so, it’s all too strange. He didn’t want to marry her for love. He was like tricking her into the marriage. (468) “God and nature intended you for a missionary’s wife. It is not personal mental endowments they have given you; you are formed for labor, not for love. A missionary’s wife you must—shall be. You shall be mine; I claim you—not for my pleasure, but for my Sovereign’s service.” What a creep. I personally think he’s just all mad Rosamond married another guy. Earlier he was saying he may have chosen the wrong career path, and then he’s acting all religious saying it just has to be. Then Jane, being as sweet as she is, tries to say no the nice way, but nooo, St. John just has to be a jerk and not accept it. (474) “I repeat, I freely consent to go with you as your fellow missionary, but not as your wife; I cannot marry you, and become a part of you.” Ok, so she’s trying to be nice, offers to go, he said God wanted her to go, but that’s still not good enough. (474) “A part of me you must become.” Yikes, if I were her, I would have taken off running right then and there. Thankfully two chapters later she leaves, and goes back to Rochester.
~*Elizabeth Patrias*~
Even though I have only read a small portion of Jane Eyre, I have been transfixed with Jane's character. Despite the hardships in Jane's life she manages to be kind-hearted, humble, and brave. I was very surprised at the confrontation between Jane Eyre and John Reed. I wanted to slap John Reed in the face because of the way in which he spoke to Jane. "You have no business to take our books; you are a dependant, mamma says; you have no money; your father left you none; you ought to beg, and not live here with gentleman's children like us."(5)At first, I thought that Jane was just going to sit back and take the verbal abuse from John but when she stood up, to John, and told him he was a "wicked and cruel boy"(5)I saw that she was very brave and that made me admire her character even more. You can clearly see, throughout the novel, that Jane is brave from standing up to not only John but Mrs. Reed as well. Jane manages to be kind-hearted to the other children at Lowood and also in the schooling of Adele. One thing that I noticed was she seems to lack confidence in some areas. From what I have read, I feel that more novels should include characters like Jane.
ReplyDeleteThroughout the novel, I noticed a recurring theme of the mistreatment of women. I was astonished at how the women were treated, especially if they had a lower social status. The mistreatment of women took place from the very beginning when John Reed verbally and physically abused Jane, to the point where Mr. Brocklehurst was complaining about the girls attire and their hair. One thing that bothered me, was Mr. Rochester's character. I really began to question Mr. Rochester’s character while he was staying at Thornfield. I began to question his character when he accused Jane Eyre of being a sorceress and then changed his mind and thanked her for saving his life. Mr. Rochester says " In the name of all the elves in Christendom, is that Jane Eyre?" " What have you done with me, witch, sorceress?". A few minutes later after hearing Jane's side of the story and investigating a little he thanks her for saving his life " You have saved my life: I have pleasure in owing so immense a debt" (160). I really didn't like how he immediately deemed her a sorceress after she just saved his life. I questioned whether Mr. Rochester was sincere and genuine or whether he was fake and judgmental.
Sarah Orabona
I found it weird that after Owen kills John's mother, that John gets mad at his mother instead of being mad at Owen. I understand why John get mad at his mother, because she never told him the story about his father, but why doesn't he get mad at Owen, even though it was an accident. I would think that John would be atleast a little mad at Owen.
ReplyDeleteIn response to the many post about how smart Owen is at such a young age. It is most likely because it seems besides John, Owen really does not have that many friends, so he spends his time when he isn't with John, reading and studying unlike the other children so that may be why he is so intelligent.
ReplyDeleteI agree very much with Gentry's post about how developed Owen's devotion towards religion. I also agree with Gentry's that it forces the reader to rethink about how unatural Owen really is. Owen seems to be unatural in many ways, from his size to his intelligence to his devotion to religion, he is very mature at a very young age.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Brandy Compton's post, I agree with you that Mr. Brocklehurst presents himself as a monster. That whole scenario, while Mr. Brocklehurst was at Lowood, just goes to show you how heartless some people can be. It also shows you how important social status and money is to them. Mr. Brocklehurst reminds me of an extremely stuck-up person. He treats them as if they are not human and they don't deserve to be treated with respect.
ReplyDeleteSarah Orabona
Sarah Orabona,
ReplyDeleteI admire Jane's character as well. I can see where you're coming from. Jane does seem to lack confidence in some areas, but after she hears things said about her such as "...if she were a nice, pretty child, one might compassionate her forlornness; but one really cannot care for such a little toad as that." (23) it's no wonder she lacks confidence! I think a major part of the novel will be the growth of Jane's character and her ability to cope with her childhood and see through different eyes as she grows into adulthood.
Cammi Savage
Sarah B.,
ReplyDeleteHelen Burns also made quite the impact on me. Like you said, she was so mature for being such a young girl (14 I think). Her impact on Jane I think was a large one as well because when Jane saw Helen recieving all those harsh punishments, it really angered Jane. But Helen was always there to reassure Jane that vengeance was not the answer and that was really powerful to me.
Cammi Savage
In response to Hannah Leonard's post, I too was quite upset when Mr. Brocklehurst humiliated Jane in front of everyone. It seems that even though Jane has left Gateshead the Reed family still has some sort of control over her and they are still influencing her life in a bad way. I wonder if she will ever truely escape the Reed family.
ReplyDeleteSarah Orabona
A prayer for owen meany is a story of two boys lives intertwined with each other. Owen meany was obvously a instrument of God, and was there to strengthen Johnnys faith as he says in the begining of the book. But i think Owen needed Johnny as much as Johnny needed Owen. Johnny was Owens only friend, Johnny was a chance for Owen to escape his life and be something diffrent. Johnny was also how Owen got into Gravesend Acadmy and how Owen was introduced to Hester.
ReplyDeleteErin Tomlin
In response to Sarahs post in response to Alyssia,
ReplyDeleteI dont think he makes himself belive he is Gods instrument He knows he is, thats what faith is knowing. He told Johnny God has taken your mother, My hands were the instrument, I am Gods instrument. He also tells Johny later on at the basketball court next to the statue of Mary after they have been working on the shot if he could still see the statue. Johnny said yea, Owen said are you sure even though you cant see it in the dark you know its there. Johnny said yes, then owen replied then you know how i belive in God.
Erin Tomlin
To Julies post on michelles post
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with you Owen knows hes special and he has a purpose he is ment to fuifil. He doesnt complain because hes small or because he sounds diffrent, He knows theres a reason for it all and like you said he isnt affraid to flaunt it
Erin Tomlin
I was astonished by Owen for the fact in the Christmas production, He sees his name on a tombstone and the date hes gonna die, then has a dream on how hes gonna die. Being only ten or elven and handling that knowledge the way he did is astoning. Most adults cant handle it when there told something like this but the is just a kid, who knows hes a instrument of God and sees when and how hes gonna die. I probably would have flipped out.
ReplyDeleteErin Tomlin
To Will,
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't put it past Irving to be using this comment as foreshadowing, but in my personal opinion I think it has a more immediate translation. Everyday, day in and day out Owen is constantly being picked on. And in subsequent pages before he remains silent in the midstof punishment from the teacher. Just a Jesus Christ was a Martyr against sin, he did not speak up as to the evil that is indeed in all of us. He remained silent and took on death. While Owen(not as 'dramatic' a martyr) does not sell out his classmates and accepts punishment
Ashton Bjaranson
Cammi,
ReplyDeleteI am with you all the way with Helen Burns. She is so mature, and really does make a great impact on me as well. When I found out she was sick I was heart broken, but that made me think, maybe she knew she was sick, and was just trying to be nice, and good. She may have been afraid she would not go to heaven if she were not. Whatever the llness she had may have also matured her, knowing she only have a short time left on earth might have shook her up, so she tried to live it to the fullest.
~*Elizabeth Patrias*~
Owen's surprisingly control(as said by others) quite surprises me while at the same time it doesn't. Johnny as narrator himself describes Owen as indescribable and was afraid for years of illustrating his character to with words. This alone should give us knowledge that everything we know about Owen is an understatement. But from the imagery Irving has riveted into my mind I don't think I would be any less subject to the will of Owen Meany. Without hearing his voice the sight of his diminutive and nearly translucent skin tone would startle me into not wanting to upset him. Then the voice; from what I am to assume is almost if not entirely transfixing. He an effect closely related to a new-born child of innocence. Who wants to upset a baby?
ReplyDeleteAshton Bjaranson
In response to Sarah B and Cammi's post about Helen Burns,
ReplyDeleteI found her character to be a bit over the top. She possessed a great wisdom, but I felt that realistically it would have been way too far beyond her years. I don't believe that it is possible for a fourteen year old to know so much. "It is far better to endure patiently a smart which nobody feels but yourself, than to commit a hasty action whose evil consequences will extend to all connected with you-and, besides, the Bible bids us return good for evil." (59) After Jane asks Helen why she did not resist when Miss Scatcherd was so cruel to her, that was Helen's reply. As much as I like that quote, it isn't realistic to the situation. Helen is someone who has been faced with many obstacles and is constantly beaten down. A person who has a crushed spirit could not evoke wisdom such as that. They would feel as though they deserved the beating and that was the reason to accept it. And according to that quote, Helen does not appear to be defeated.
When Helen was on her deathbed she was told Jane that she was not scared or anything of that nature. "I am very happy, Jane; and when you hear that I am dead you must be sure and not grieve; there is nothing to grieve about. We all must die one day, and the illness which is removing me is not painful; it is gentle and gradual; my mind is at rest." (89) I could maybe see a older person saying something like that, but this girl had many more years to live. I believe that only someone who is completely apathetic towards life would be able to look death in the eye and have no fear. But she says that she is very happy, so apathy is out of the question. So that leaves the question of what category of a person does Helen fit into? She accepts her situation which is feat that many people of lesser circumstances never can do. In my opinion, this little girl is put in the story simply to instill wisdom to readers. But I feel that the form in which Bronte creates her doesn't do justice to the words that she utters. I am skeptical to everything that Helen says because girls of that age just don't act like that. When I'm reading novels, I like them to be very realistic and I don't believe that a person such as Helen Burns could ever exist. Perhaps I am just being pessimistic, but to me the character of Helen seems too good to ever be true.
Chelsea Smith
Chelsea,
ReplyDeletein response to your comment to Cammi and Sarah B. I must disagree with you. Yes, Helen is only 14, but put yourself in her position. She is an orphan, and gets shipped off to a school that is very religious based. As with most religions the after life is the best, and it is something to be excited about. She reads a lot, obviously from when Jane interrupts her. She has an illness and knows she will not live long. Being an orphan she is not very close to anyone, she has no family, and since she reads so much she has no friends. The teachers are not of the nicest to her. With all that she reads, all the religious knowledge she has, knowing she does not have long to live, and knowing that life on earth is nothing compared to the after life, I strongly believe that a character such as Helen Burns is possible.
~*Elizabeth Patrias*~
Elizabeth,
ReplyDeleteI did put myself in her situation and that is why I find it to be so unbelievable. I know for a fact that if I had experienced the hardships that she did, I would most certainly be a very bitter and defeated person. I do not believe that I would be spurting off that sort of wisdom. How does she have so much faith in God when he gave her such a terrible life? If you were in her situation are you telling me that you would that much of a love of God even though he has never given you anything good in life?
Chelsea Smith
As I read Jane Eyre, I took note of the the traits possessed by Jane's cousins, the Reeds. Eliza was headstrong and selfish, was respected. Georginna was beautiful, had a spoiled temper and very acrid spite but was universally indulged. John was a terrible, he always picked on Jane, seta the dogs to the sheep, even called his mother an 'old girl'. However, no one thwarted him and he was his mother's 'own darling'. (10) They were happy when Jane was sent away to school because they never cared about her.
ReplyDeleteUpon hearing that Jane had more cousins, again two girls and a boy, I was curios to see how they differed from the Reeds. The Rivers seemed to be foils of her first set of cousins in many ways. In Jane's time of need, they took her in and nursed he back to health without knowing anything about her. Diana possessed a gaze to which Jane was delighted to encounter, her whole face full of charm. She spoke with an authority as well. Mary was equally intelligent as her sister, but had gentle manners and spoke more distantly. St. John was a parson who was going to India to be a missionary, so clearly he wanted to help people.
These two sets of cousins could not be more different. I especially thought that the two Johns were such opposites that it was almost humorous.
Chelsea Smith
Throughout my reading of Jane Eyre, I could not decide whether or not I liked the book. I am a firm believer in love and I know how sad it can be when you give love and get none in return. Rochester constantly did things indicating his love for Jane, but would never give her the peace of mind of knowing his feelings. In chapter 17 he even slips up saying, "Goodnight my-" then bites his lip as though he's said too much. That signifies that he was going to call Jane a loving name or something of that nature. It wasn't until Mr. Rochester confessed his love for Jane did I decide that I liked it. I couldn't stand the fact that Jane loved this person who seemed to like her, but who was going to marry someone else. "But Jane, I summon you as my wife; it is you only I intend to marry." (295) When Rochester told Jane that, I was so happy. Even though I knew that their marriage would not turn out the way they wanted, at least she knew that he loved her. Jane had overcome so many hardships in her life and she deserved to have a person who loved her unconditionally like Mr. Rochester did. So upon learning that, I was able to enjoy the rest of the book.
ReplyDeleteChelsea Smith
APFOW
ReplyDeleteIn most novels i read, their driving factor is suspense. They always present a question of what happens next that keeps the reader flipping the pages. However in Irving's case he implements other literary strategies to maintain interest. In a way he almost rights his book in reverse. In the very first part of the book he tells us where he is now and his current situation, then goes back to his childhood and begins to work his way to the present. Also where most authors would have talked about the lives of the boys and their mother working up to the tragic accident, Irving tells us about the accident within the first chapter, and in the following chapters goes into detail about their lives leading up to the fated day at the baseball fields. So while others rely upon the overused literary cheat sheet that is suspense, Irving introduces revelations (such as Owen being a tool of God) or events (such as Tabby's death), and then after hooking the reader with these profound facts and occurences, goes into detail about the happenings leading up to them.
Another interesting aspect of Irvings writing style that i've noticed through reading this book is the extensive detail he goes into about each of his characters. One example of this is when he goes into detail about the preachers of his two churches. These two characters never seemed important enough to dedicate that much page space to, yet Irving spends more than enough time describing them. Honestly the longer he spent talking about them the less interested I got.
I remember, whenever I hear about the novel "Jane Eyre" that more often than not the religeous aspect are brought up, but I find religion holds a lesser place to superstion than anything. Even early you have to take notice. "I whiped my tears and hushed my sobs, fearful lest any sighn of violent grief might waken a preternatural voice to comfort me, or elict from the gloom some haloed face, bendin over me with strange pity." (pg 11)
ReplyDeleteJane even mistakens Rochester for a supernatural being, rather than the rider he obveously was. But the superstition was not Jane's alone. Teh maids gossip, Many times curses or ghosts are hypothesized when something ill happens, and Rochester always pick the names and species of Fey to address Jane. I found it odd that this aspect jumped out at me more than God in this novel, seeing as Jane mentions (thopugh never prays to) God when in parel.
Donnelle Myers.
Jane annoys me, simple as that, and especially as a child. She lives with her relatives, who hate and abuse her, and she seems appropriately subdued, but when the option of leaving (school) comes around, she gets this odd sudden wrath and courage about her.
ReplyDeleteWhat espceially annoys me though is the reaction of Mrs. Reed. "Mrs. Reed looked frightened; her work had slipped from her knee, she was lifting up her hands, rocking herself to and fro, and ever twisting her face, as if she would cry." (page 30)
This child has been under her thumb, her son beats this kid on a regular basis. She KNOWS she controls Jane, and when Jane says "Hey, put me in school" aka "Jump" she relies with a prompt "yes mam, how high?"
I don't believe it.
Donnelle Myers
Chelsea Smith,
ReplyDeleteI was actually quite shocked by your statement about not enjoying the book if her love was not returned.
""Once more, why this refusal?" he (John) Asked.
"Formerly," I answered, "Because you did not love me; now, I reply, because you almost hate me. ..."" (431)
Jane's words, back in those days, would be shocking but horibly romantic, something people in those days look down upon in the face of what was necisary. Most women of her time would have been expected to accept her cousin's proposal. She would have been expected to do her Christian duty and marry him to work for god, whether she wanted to or not.
What I get from your comment though it a Romanticness that holds love in a unrealistic ideal. "She loves him, so he should forget rank and properness and everything society has ever taught him right and be with her, JUST because he loves her."
I enjoyed this book purely because it didn't hold to that ideal. You didn't know for sure what they felt for each other, you didn't know for sure if they would end up together, and them going their own ways was quite probably.
Because that is the way that love actually works. It's annoying, and breaks your heart, but this novel did hold firmly to love in it's reality while still holding a bit or romantic charm that let Jane go the odd rout and find her way back to Edward.